Curse

Axeman002 · Dec 21, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

Bullshit.

Compared to SF, 600/smite is hardly overpowered. It requires at least 2 players and, depending on the area, you need a 3rd (QZ). And, the most significant difference of all, 600/smite doesn't make you immune to attacks, while SF does. Besides that, you need to dedicate about 7 slots to your build, while SF only requires 3 (or 2). See where this is going?

so yeah 2 skills to stay alive...but wait what does prot spirit and spirit bond do????? oh yeah KEEPS YOU ALIVE!

Enon · Dec 21, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

You can't 600 with just Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond. Argument fail, Axeman002.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just because 600/smite isn't as mental as SF, that does not make it balanced.

I never claimed that 600/smite is balanced. I simply want to draw a distinctive line between SF and 600/smite. They differ a lot, both in mechanics and in methods. Besides, Regina is comparing SF invulnerability with 600/smite 'invulnerability'. That comparison is utterly wrong and a decent CM should know better.

On a side note: Nerfing 'farming' is killing one of the three Guild Wars endgame possibilities. Dumb move?

Chthon · Dec 21, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I don't get how this is hard to comprehend.
SF and 600/smite are both overpowered. SF is more overpowered than 600/smite. But that does not make 600/smite balanced. It still allows 1 person to tank, and 2 people to kill, zones that were designed to provide challenge for 8 people.

My only concern about 600/smite is that a-net may forget to consider collateral nerf damage (like they always do) and royally muck up normal play by nerfing PS and/or SB instead of smite or SoA.

Axeman002 · Dec 21, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

You can't 600 with just Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond. Argument fail, Axeman002.

u also cant perma with just 2 skills...so also ure fails Enon

anyway this is turning into another SF bashing thread.....lets stick to the 600 bashing instead..i love seeing monks bleed there hearts out thats there dear 4 yr old farm build is dooooooooooomed lol

Inferno Link · Dec 21, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

u also cant perma with just 2 skills...so also ure fails Enon

anyway this is turning into another SF bashing thread.....lets stick to the 600 bashing instead..i love seeing monks bleed there hearts out thats there dear 4 yr old farm build is dooooooooooomed lol

Wow you really do fit the typical Assassin/Shadow Form stereotype...

Enon · Dec 21, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

u also cant perma with just 2 skills...so also ure fails Enon

You can, if you use an Essence. Otherwise you need 3 skills. Either way - less skills for a better effect, therefor SF can't be compared with 600.

Axeman002 · Dec 21, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno Link

Wow you really do fit the typical Assassin/Shadow Form stereotype...

i stick up for the people who enjoy the part of the game QQ'rs try to abolish because 'they dont like it'...

i also 600/smite...but i find perma more fun...there both getting nerfed...thats for sure ...its the QQ i like to see...all these people throwing it at sins because we have an 'OP tanking skill'...im sure if ure proffession had a bar that was OP you would use it aswell...oh u do dont you lol.

but in all fairness easy way to nerf 600/55 necro/330 rit/105 rit etc etc...nerf prot spirit....just like u think solving the perma problem is to nerf SF.

Yichi · Dec 21, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

...one of the easy proofs is PvP combat. There's a reason why SF is not used there.

You obviously never paid attention to al lthe hate that SF got for the griefer builds running around in PvP that basically did nothing but stall for 45+ minutes having a SF sin running around that you could never kill, or that there was a cash prize tournament that WM won with using a dual SF sin build in the semi's.

SF got decimated in PvP because of the abuse it was recieving, not the skill and play the build promoted, because outside of one guild using a build with it, the rest of the builds were all degenerate builds.

BogusDude · Dec 21, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

zones that were designed to provide challenge for 8 people.

.

Says who? They are designed to allow no more than 8 players. If they were designed specifically to provide a challenge for 8 people then you would not be able to enter the zone unless you had a full party. If you want that to be the end outcome then you'll struggle to get that party, players are spread out all over the place and such implementation would be the end of GW for many of us who have already been there and done it. If there was no farming there would be little reason for many of us to hang around. Facts are its a part of the game many of us enjoy and always have and ncsoft have already stated that soleable play will be possible in GW2. There will never be a "balance" while you have experienced and inexperienced players, experienced players will always be able to achieve things beyond the comprehension of inexperienced players until such a point as they learn for themselves the tricks of the trade. The fact that inexperienced players do get to play alongside and learn from experienced players at an early stage is what seperates this game from many similar games. But to expect experienced players to continuously teach and help newbs how to do that Sanctum Cay mission in NM day in day out for 5 years is unrealistic (that may be some peoples style of play and kudos to them), which is why we have such things as solo farming in the game. But even farmers get bored and break off to help some random guildie get through a mission with no benefit to themselves.

As i have already stated, i do not believe that perma and 600 are anymore overpowered than any other farming build. The imbalance is with their counter opponents and the AI. Other builds have more counters. 55's used to pwn their way through virtually everything back in the day, which they put a stop to, there was never any real nerf to the builds themselves. This was a success, we still get to enjoy playing 55's even though its not quite as profitable as it once was. The economy isn't the way it is now because of 600 or SF, its because the demand for rare items is alot higher than the drop rate and you have people to compete against who've been accumulating wealth and means of achieving it over years. Yes there are people who've joined the game and ecto farmed 24/7 from day 1, but these people do not represent the majority of players or have that great an effect on the economy, that style of play is far too tedious for the majority. Ecto/shard drop rates are lower than they've ever been. the prices of ectos has started to rise again since the update with less people able to successfully do UWSC with Dhuum or even solo farm like they used to. Shard prices are dropping as UWSC farmers have moved over to FoWSC, nerfing SF won't stop that, there are other viable tanks and lots of solo farms. They need to do something similar to FoW as UW to get shard prices back up and make it an "Elite" area again. They need to counter SF and 600 by updating the AI and monster skill distribution and i agree some randomisation of mobs would be fun, despite some limitations.

Angelina Collins · Dec 21, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Why even bother modifing skills anymore, it's not balance at all. What the hell are you trying to balance?

Stop modifing skills to challenge the elete, and piss off the causal gamer. The only thing that needs balancing is the GW economy, by fixing prices on materal and rare materal items. Do that and farming for those items will be abandoned, also lose the gold cap. Face it GW is dieing and in a couple more years will be dead, due to your release of GW2. So let some of us have some fun with the game before it dies, return the skills back to their normal fuction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4thVariety · Dec 21, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Balance is the result of trying to be prepared for anything that might be encountered. As such a "balance build" requires an environment in which the player can never accurately predict against what he might end up in the next 10 minutes.

Since PvE is 100% predictable, balance is not an option making sense for a PvE player. As a PvE player I want a high degree of specialization. I want that gimmick skillset hitting the enemy's weak spot.

It also does not matter if one guy pushes three buttons to tank, or if a team wastes a few skillslots more until the same is achieved. Right now, a MoP spike requires three guys, so even if the other five people would spam enchantments till kingdom come to make one guy invincible, the basic approach would not change one bit. Can't have a threee skill Sin? Too bad, take the four skill Warrior with the SB Monk in the back.

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 21, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

i stick up for the people who enjoy the part of the game QQ'rs try to abolish because 'they dont like it'...

We don't want it nerfed because we don't like it, we want it nerfed because it's game breaking. You should never be able to 123 and be [nearly] invincible in an online game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

i also 600/smite...but i find perma more fun...there both getting nerfed...thats for sure ...its the QQ i like to see...all these people throwing it at sins because we have an 'OP tanking skill'

Correction, OP farming/tanking/running/everything build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

...im sure if ure proffession had a bar that was OP you would use it aswell...oh u do dont you lol.

invalid argument is invalid. Many of us use SF, but that doesn't make it any less broken. To be at the top of the game you have to quickly adjust to the meta, and with SF, farmers are almost forced into using it (not literally, but by demand). Also, many, and I'd like to say the majority, of players do not have a single profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

but in all fairness easy way to nerf 600/55 necro/330 rit/105 rit etc etc...nerf prot spirit....just like u think solving the perma problem is to nerf SF.

not ALL farming builds should be nerfed. In fact, if Anet had a problem with 55s, they wouldn't have put one into the game themselves. Most farming builds, and especially those relying on Prot Spirit, are fragile, and can only farm certain areas. Those areas are usually, and if not quickly outfarmed because of the access people have to them (Dead Bow: Bergen Hot Springs).

The main problem I assume Anet has with farming builds is not WHAT they can farm, it's how quickly and efficiently they can farm them. It's hard to force a happy medium between supply and demand, and that medium is directly effected by what farming builds are allowed to farm where.

Krill · Dec 21, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Why do PvE players care so much about game balance? I'm not asking this as the usual lol pee vee eee, I'm genuinely curious as to why anyone would care about having farm builds nerfed. It seems most of the arguments presented are entirely out of spite and the seriousness confounds me.

athariel · Dec 21, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Why do PvE players care so much about game balance? I'm not asking this as the usual lol pee vee eee, I'm genuinely curious as to why anyone would care about having farm builds nerfed. It seems most of the arguments presented are entirely out of spite and the seriousness confounds me.

because extreme imbalance of SF ruins the prices of items, which ruins the gameplay for players who don't want to play assassins. Before you say that it doesn't ruin gameplay at all because I can get max stuff easily -> it works for everything except for stupid money titles which bring nothing and you need to finish them if you want GWAMM. I have played GW for 3 years and I'd really like to get GWAMM, which is a highest rank a PvE player can get, and it sucks when a farmer (in a game which is against grinding/farming) is better than a player who tries to play the way the game was supposed to be played (no grind/farm, only skills).
that's an example why balance ruins the game for me. I am sure other people have their own reasons, even as simple as that every game requires balance.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 22, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

On a side note: Nerfing 'farming' is killing one of the three Guild Wars endgame possibilities. Dumb move?

You can farm without it being a solo farm.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 22, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Why do PvE players care so much about game balance? I'm not asking this as the usual lol pee vee eee, I'm genuinely curious as to why anyone would care about having farm builds nerfed. It seems most of the arguments presented are entirely out of spite and the seriousness confounds me.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=266

Bryant Again · Dec 22, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

You can farm without it being a solo farm.

This is true.

mistokibbles · Dec 22, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Bye bye MoI

and leave 600/smite alone :/ until it clears the UW HM in ~30 mins, it's fine how it is now

Arkantos · Dec 22, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistokibbles

Bye bye MoI

and leave 600/smite alone :/ until it clears the UW HM in ~30 mins, it's fine how it is now

Just because it can't clear the UW in 30 minutes doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed.

Barrage · Dec 22, 2009, 03:30 AM // 03:30

People arguing that farming skills are overpowered, guess what, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE. Without farming skills, well, you know all those pretty little titles you see what you press H? Half of them will be impossible without an unhealthy obsession with holiday quests. 3 consumable titles, alcohol, sweets, and party, all costs a minimum of 3mill along with lucky and treasure hunter, also requiring a large sum of money. How do you people propose we get that much money in a reasonable amount of time. Sure you can waste 4 hours in UW with no SF getting no more than 4 ectos and pray that you get a drop wroth 100e+ but honestly, do you believe you'll get it? No matter how much you complain, how much they nerf, YOU NEED FARMING ABILITIES. Just because they nerf one, does not mean new ones won't spring up and take its place. Now stop complaining and start actually looking at the effects of no farming skills.